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Been having problems with buffering

Ckserb

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Been having problems with buffering
« on: August 15, 2017, 10:27:43 pm »
Hey all

Was having problems with buffering so I followed some websites who said to clear my data on my box and reinstall. I did....

Now nothing works. Apps are not loading anything (specifically Exodus and Specto who I use regularly). Any help? New at this whole IT side of the Kodi system.

sarah

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2017, 02:15:45 am »
When you clear data, you are clearing everything which makes the addons work.

Data is something which should NEVER be deleted unless you want to start your Kodi afresh.

flhthemi

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2017, 10:43:55 am »
Just an FYI - I just finished installing Kodi 17.4RC1 on a friend's Android tablet and it went fine and everything works.

Installed:
Smash repo
SALTS
Specto -...Fork

Colossus Repo
Bennu
Covenant
Tinklepad

The Aeon Nox Silvo Skin

Then I moved Exodus from another install and got it going too.

All without a hitch. So I'm left wondering what you could be doing wrong...

Did you activate both with a trakt account?
What repos did you use?

« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 10:45:59 am by flhthemi »

Buzz Marshall

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2017, 08:45:46 pm »
Buffering can happen for a lot of reasons but seeing as you mentioned "a box" you need to keep in mind that most boxes running Android are also running a lot of crap in the background that if you don't need it should be shut off if you can... depending on the box and how much s-dram can come into it as well... Kodi as it gets newer tends to use more s-ram depending on its version and what type of stream your trying to pull in... bigger streams make more decoding demands and if your box only does software decode there goes some more of the ram pool.. Kodi's seems to get blamed for the buffering a lot of times when to be fair when it comes to Android boxes its been proven many times over that Kodi runing on the same box but with linux performs much better then Kodi running on top of Android, so its always a good idea to look into Android as well to reduce both its demands on the limited ram pool and how much bandwidth is wasted by Android and its various running applications talking to their remote servers...

On other platforms where you have a full blown pc with tons of ram or on some device specifically stripped down and setup specifically to run Kodi then network issues generally are a contributing cause whether its your provider or on your end is usually where to look...

Cache is usually handled by the advancedsettings.xml file Kodi uses and their Wiki has a good amount of info and write up on how it works which is where i would start... Nothing against Ares but its basically just using a math formula that checks a few resources your box has and tries to calculate and create the file for you to the best it can... generally its a good start but usually i have found its values can be improved on because it really doesn't consider whats actually running on you box which can really vary from one box to another... reading and understanding exactly how Kodi uses its cache is something people should really know more about... 

Clearing caches should be confined to things like the thumbs caches or throwing away the zipped original plug-ins from within the packages directory, in other words your basically just freeing up flash storage space because your running out of storage space... Buffering issues usually take place in live ram which is where everything is running so reducing any thing not needed from drawing from the limited s-ram pool needs to be looked at...

Kodi pulling high resolution streams on a Android box with Android OS and 1gig or ram is really pushing things these days if your looking for issue free tv viewing...

sarah

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2017, 02:31:28 am »
@Buzz

Very interesting explanation!

sarah

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2017, 02:38:17 am »
So if one has, let's say, 30 addons in his Kodi set-up, and is using 1 addon for a match, are the other addons still working in the background and using up part of the ram?

Buzz Marshall

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2017, 11:12:35 am »
When it comes to embedded devices like the Android boxes things are different then a full blown computer which i think sometimes leads to confusion in understanding certain things...

Computers usually have a lot more ram and can have more added if needed as well as storage space and are way way better at multi-tasking then any small embedded device such as a Android box... Programs on a computer run in ram and can off-load if required via things like swap space fairly efficiently which is something embedded devices can struggle with...

Most Android type of hardware have the Android operating system and what ever appz that are pre-loaded by the factory installed into a read only compressed image thats stored on the boxes flash storage space which gets uncompressed and loaded into the box's  ram upon boot up where it will get run by the box... this is why its a pain to remove pre-loaded crap without knowing how to work with the image file which is what makes up part of the firmware files people flash to their boxes... anyways thats another subject... mostly its done like this to make things hard for the user to mess up and help get around the read/write cycle limit the flash storage chips have...

So with that in mind Kodi running on a box like that is just one of a number of Android processes that are running and sharing the total ram pool based on the size of the ram in the box... Android by itself has a lot of processes running and can be seen by going into the developers area of the operating system and start counting how many things are running, then on top of that Android's running tracking programs and constantly talking to googles servers for various things, add to that Android appz that get added by the user that in some cases use more and you start to get the picture of whats going on... so when kodi's running its sharing that ram pool with all those things...

Thats one part... now that other part is all of those things are sharing and fighting for execution cycle time by the various SoC hardware which can lead to processes's waiting for execution time depending on whats going on at anyone point in given time... threading and caching are two of the technologies involved that make most of this posible but they rely on program developers to stick to specs and write their stuff in manners that obey the rules which in this day and age all to often get fudged and its easy to get some app that hogs and won't release what its using when it should and when its bad enough one gets the all to familiar hung box that you need to unplug and plug back in syndrome...

I have kinda over simplified things as the subject is a lot more involved then that but one should kinda get the idea and see that Kodi has to interact with that mess and its easier to see where things can start to go wrong...

Full blown computers are a lot more flexible and much much better hardware wise which is why in some cases Kodi will work fine (including its plug-ins) but then on some box its struggles... If your computer is struggling with buffering as well as the box then its probably a network issue with your setup and provider but if the computer and kodi is fine but the android box is fighting then its something with the combination of the Android OS and Kodi on the box...

Android as a OS isn't bad but understand it was written for touch screen devices NOT Android boxes and really only got its start because of a couple of hackers a few years back that found a way to hack into the Android OS a remote control driver that finally allowed a control device that enabled the whole box scene in the first place... this is partly why so many remotes that come with boxes are really crappy and touchy... over the years the ability to use the Android box as a cheap input device for your flat screen have grown in leaps and bounds to the point that KODI is probably the single most driving force in all of the increased sales of boxes... but that doesn't come without problems such as while streaming resolutions get better and Kodi's grows to handle them the newest SoC's (S90x) forced by Amlogic onto the manufacturers can easily become a real pain to make reliable and perform consistantly... the older S812s are usually a much better box as they are more mature and have way better software but are hard to find as most makers have moved up off that platform... Amlogic truly has become one of the worst when it comes to providing open support to their SoC's as they tend to shelter the manufacturers that they spoon feed Android support to while controlling the box scene... Apps like Kodi tend to need more then the Android OS wants to share with it at times which is often part of where buffering issues stem from... Android itself by its very nature tends to hide things from the user making shutting off useless crap hard for users... personally i think Google(androids owner) is more interested in collecting data as it typicially does with tablets and phones which is what the OS was designed for and now that the box scene has grown so much its time for a better OS (linux) thats more concerned with the programs running on it then collecting data but companies like Amlogic are holding that back by not being more forthcoming with releasing drivers or at least the proper info so some of us can produce the required userspace drivers... thats exactly why the S912 boxes even tho they are the best of the current hardware are the worst box to buy for anything other then Android and even its not all that great as most of the real hardware gains of those boxes are not really used to their best abilities...

As far as how many plug-ins one has installed on the box being a issue the only real issue would be with a plug-in thats not properly coded thats not releasing its thread properly giving up what resources it was using back to the ram pool which writing any user settings into the plug-ins cache for future plug-in use... generally tho that kinda space is more of a matter of cleaning to free up storage space because your running short on flash space...

Anyways sorry to digress but hopefully that kinda helps paint a bit of the picture of some of the things that are involved with why buffering can be a issue on the Android boxes...

flhthemi

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2017, 11:57:04 am »
And there can be issues on the server side. Peak hours overload. I use no buffer factor settings at all in advanced settings.xml on any of my devices as it has never proven to be of any help *to me*.

If you want to get a sort of idea about what's running in the background of Kodi open system, addons, running.

See here:

Buzz Marshall

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2017, 02:14:57 pm »
same here...  the only time i ever really found the advancedsetting file ever did anything effective was on the old atv2 boxes as they just had next to no ram...

my linux/mac/windows boxes i never use one either...

Android box users i think find it useful at times is mainly only because Android itself is a hog and without the file Kodi's got no real way of locking or setting aside anything... If you know your way around Android well enough tho you can shut crap down and reserve some ram for the kodi there rather then using the advancedsettings file...

but to be fair i will say there are times when maybe having the file is useful i just don't see it being required all the time as so many others always insist...

Harsh 2010

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2017, 07:25:49 pm »
 ;)I been having lot of buffering problems too ,
I wonder if there are any good ram cleaner or utilities add-ons ?

DjDiabolik

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2017, 08:21:54 pm »
advancedsettings it's a totally useless option............ i have about 1 minutes ago i have open another thread about buffers:
In my case at every "live" stream i can't obtain a buffer HIGH to 7/8 seconds also when i stay to watch channel whit the best WORST quality.....

I thinks the main problems it's kodi himself.............. and there's no a relly solution to this.......

Buzz Marshall

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2017, 09:32:11 pm »
advancedsettings it's a totally useless option............ i have about 1 minutes ago i have open another thread about buffers:
In my case at every "live" stream i can't obtain a buffer HIGH to 7/8 seconds also when i stay to watch channel whit the best WORST quality.....

I thinks the main problems it's kodi himself.............. and there's no a relly solution to this.......

Not sure what platform your running on... and as said earlier normal full pc based systems don't really need to use as as most full blown systems have better ways to adjust the shared resources on the the system... but Android boxes can be all over the map with buffering issues...

But to say the problems Kodi and there's no real solution sounds more like frustration on your part, which is understandable,

Ive been doing this since the days of the old xbox and atv's would say its definately not Kodi's problem on a properly installed system... Kodi's just like any other app running on top of a OS and its using whats given to it by the operating system... Maybe in the way back days Kodi struggled with buffering issues but those days are long gone...

Buffering can be a complex issue that may involve more then just one thing as it may be the result of multi issues such as a combination of a bad internet connection or provider combined with to high of stream resolution for the hardware box... as well as where the streams source is coming from can play into it... anyways theres many things that need to work together to get and then maintain the streams minimum bandwidth before dropping packets start happening and the best way to troubleshoot it is to start eliminating the ones you can... 

as well... a Android box getting 7/8 seconds of buffering may be a issue depending on memory... high res protocols that have to use software decode on a 1gig box is stretching things... a lot comes down to the actual box being used...

DjDiabolik

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2017, 07:36:14 pm »
frustation ? Are you serious ?

Are you never tryed to do a "Google search" whit simply key "Kodi Buffer" ?

The issue/trouble about kodi whit issue it's an hystorycal discussion and noone apparently as found a very real solution....


Otherwise in my case i stay to use OSMC on a Pi2......... and my exact problems it's not the continues reproduction (some case i can watch a live stream for hours whitout any problems) but my question it's related to real seconds of buffers kodi con "store". I my case and in so many case i see apparently it's at maximum 8 seconds and i have tryed to change the advencedsetting or other things and apparently there's no differences.....

Meanwhile... it's totally different.. it's not "frustration" but simply a lot of more curiosity....

Buzz Marshall

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2017, 05:11:32 pm »
The fact that it works one time and not the next proves that kodi is working ok and something else is going on or has changed... those things may be your bandwidth between you and where your streaming from has changed for what could be any multitude of problems...

All my other posts were meant to try and help people understand where some of those problems lie and help them learn to eliminate things one by one trying to find the answer in their case... Ive been a member on Kodis forum pretty much since it started and most of the threads about buffering usually end up going the same way as misinformed people try to single out Kodi as the reason for it all the time... Kodi even went to the extent of creating the advancedsettings.xml file as a method to try and help give people a method of fine tuning their system but in no way was it created as a necessity... hell most running on full blown puters don't even use it because they don't need it...

Kodi is just a app that runs on top of the Operating system which is what is actually controlling the hardware... NOT KODI...  so it either works or it don't work... and 99% of the time when it don't work its because of something else its interacting with because it depends on it...

Live TV is something that i've seen DEDICATED IPTV boxes costing hundreds of dollars struggle with as well at times because of Internet issues between the user and the stream source, so i find it totally ludicrous when people expect some $40 Android box running Kodi to deliver media in the near flawless manner a real provider would...

OSCM is just like OpenELEC or LibreELEC or EMBER or any other number of stripped down linux systems designed to better support Kodi then what Android does, and they are all based on the same premise which is to take the very small amount of resources generally available on the small embedded devices and try and ensure KODI gets what it needs in a consistant manner...

Tell ya what... sometime why not research just how much sram needs to be set aside for caching every second of streaming content and you will start to see how on the small embedded devices just how easy it is to tie up a good chunk of the limited sram on the device... now add... all these small devices depend on that same sram to hold and execute the firmware image for the device as well as having to share it with everything else thats running... now lets couple with that the fact that threaded support on the smaller embedded devices is limited in how well it can service all the swapping calls and execution clocks the SoC requires to run the board which when compared to a full blown pc is done a lot easier... then just to toss some more on top of the pile theres alot of boxes that are still doing software decode on some stream types which are more execution clocks used and s-ram being required...

So while all of this is going on were trying to bring in stream packets in a proper order from a network we have no control over and play them in the proper order...  with all that going on its real easy to have things get hung up on wait time or maybe a packet was pitched because it timed out or was in the wrong order... i don't know about you but i know a fair bit about transport packets and networking and theres a lot of networking equipment out there with more resources then the average small box and their just charged with traffic management not playing a stream on top while driving a tv...

And in the end in most cases NONE of that is Kodi's responsibility as its just another app, not the operating system which is really whats responsible for pretty much all of that...

The reality is people are looking for free or cheaper media services then their money grubbing providers want per month but you should think of things more in these terms... when you pay your provider what your really paying for is the reliablity of their system to deliver the content you want and they spend a lot of time and money trying to ensure that because thats their business model... all this other streaming stuff is FREE and its only logical to NOT expect perfection because its being developed by a lot of people for free and fun...

I truly do hope you find what your issue is... but as far as the historical discussions and no one finding a real solution its because most of the people with the problems don't understand any of what i have posted above while a lot of other people over time have learned to understand it and try and deal with it as best they can...  buffering threads on Kodi is probably one of the most dreaded topics amongst some of the guys that have been around for a long time as its a no win situation as everyones system is unique and theres really no cookie-cutter answer to the subject and the best way is to understand how the whole thing works and then try and troubleshoot it one by one... most are looking for a simple one-step answer and in a lot of cases there isn't one...

Anyways i truly do hope you can find the issue...

flhthemi

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2017, 09:07:49 am »
Very well said!

I would estimate, just from my own experience, 90% of buffering issues are server/stream issues. Be it overload or just plain old bad video files...it's usually their problem, not Kodi's.

DjDiabolik

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2017, 01:51:32 pm »
oh ok.. server issue.... at this point all server over the worlds have an issue.........

A very river of words upper here only to confirm the facts there's no a solution for buffer issue/trouble :)



End of the games.......

TonyH

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2017, 02:32:01 pm »
Lol @ buzz being a river. Just kidding, your posts are always very informative, I just literally laughed when I read that😂

flhthemi

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2017, 02:37:32 pm »
oh ok.. server issue.... at this point all server over the worlds have an issue.........

A very river of words upper here only to confirm the facts there's no a solution for buffer issue/trouble :)



End of the games.......

Did you note that I said 90%? You may be in that 10% that has other issues....like not a fast enough connection speed or a messed up router or a bad cat5 cable or a wifi issue. Maybe your IP throttles speed if they see you using a lot of data? You never said how you connect your pi nor what addon(s) are having issues. There may indeed be a solution but 1st you have to find the problem! ;)

« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 02:46:15 pm by flhthemi »

Buzz Marshall

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2017, 07:55:39 pm »
oh ok.. server issue.... at this point all server over the worlds have an issue.........

A very river of words upper here only to confirm the facts there's no a solution for buffer issue/trouble :)



End of the games.......

haha...  have it your way... sorry to try and waste my time trying to explain stuff... by the way i've no problem with buffering issues including 4k streams and so far neither have any of the owners of the over 1000 boxes ive got out in the field for the last couple of years... only issues i seem to have are fixing plug-ins when they break and providing new roms for the game emulator on my boxes...

Quote from: DjDiabolik on August 29, 2017, 01:51:32 pm

    oh ok.. server issue.... at this point all server over the worlds have an issue.........

    A very river of words upper here only to confirm the facts there's no a solution for buffer issue/trouble :)



    End of the games.......


Did you note that I said 90%? You may be in that 10% that has other issues....like not a fast enough connection speed or a messed up router or a bad cat5 cable or a wifi issue. Maybe your IP throttles speed if they see you using a lot of data? You never said how you connect your pi nor what addon(s) are having issues. There may indeed be a solution but 1st you have to find the problem! ;)

[/quote]

lol... no probs... i realize not everyones a coder and try and explain things as best i can so i know i tend to babble on so no offense taken... i quess i shoulda just realized the nail isn't going down and stopped trying to bash it... :)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 06:08:14 pm by Buzz Marshall »

sarah

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2017, 01:44:27 am »
@buzz - keep your informative posts coming dear friend.
Always enjoy reading them and always learn something new in them and I'm sure that many here do the same. Cheers

Mookster

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2017, 06:35:54 pm »
Seems from my experience, and from alot of other posts, most buffering issues are connection speed related. Located rural in canada, and only having access to 5 Meg download, I just put up with it.

TonyH

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2017, 06:40:24 pm »
I watched the same channel on three different sources last night, two were buffering and one was perfect. The good one was from a paid iptv service, but the point is, in my experience buffering is 90% from the source.

Buzz Marshall

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Re: Been having problems with buffering
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2017, 10:23:05 pm »
I watched the same channel on three different sources last night, two were buffering and one was perfect. The good one was from a paid iptv service, but the point is, in my experience buffering is 90% from the source.

I'm glad you posted that as it helps make the point about where most of the problems really stem from...

As a quick simple test i usually just tell people to stream something local from a sd card or a localized server and if Kodi on whatever platform your running on works then in MOST cases it proves theres something off in your connection bandwidth... whether its because of something in your local networking or isp is what you have to try and figure out... usually its related to the wan side of your connection and theres not really to much you can do about it without looking at improving your connection speed somehow...

To many i think just make the mistake of trying to think of streaming traffic in the same manner as things like torrent downloads or normal file downloads where timing just really is not usually a problem...

Theres things that can be done to improve the routing of transport stream packets but unfortunately they need to be implemented at the streaming source and not the receiving end... Over the years a couple of us looked at trying to impliment some of the techniques we used to improve CAS packets (cardsharing) in the sat scene but to do so would mean they need to be done at the source, basically meaning setting up a better streaming source... Netflix and Bells Live tv are examples of better ways and i'm quessing some of the IPTV sources are probably doing things as well...

The Transport layer comprises wrappers around the encoded stream packets but there are mechanisms and parameters in the spec that can help reduce the latency between the streaming source and recieving client for anyone using methods covered by the dvb specs which is basically what most streaming sources do in one way or another...

As well some of the better systems tend to do somethings in their own special ways making their system perform better by providing a custom client at their end to make use of what they are doing at the streaming source outside the normal spec... Bell's Live tv and Netflix are examples of some of that... as well as implimenting their own management/accounting within the clients...   

The Internet basically runs like a mail system where there is normally no guaranteed route between the ends as the thousands of packets that make up a single stream move from source to client... each of the packets will go from hop to hop based on the network congestion and router rules at each router it passes thru on its way... things like a file download dont matter which order the packets are received as they just sit in a cache waiting for all the peices until they are all there and then get reassembled and bam your file your downloading is complete and thats it... streamiing media tho doesn't really like when packets arrive outta order and by nature most media players have to deal with that one way or another but no matter what they do if the next packet of the stream your currently watching takes to long you loose your stream resulting in a bunch of different problems depending on how bad the wait times are...

One of the reasons things like VPN's and some IPTV systems appear to give better results and less buffering is really based on the idea of reducing how much of the streamed packets have to traverse the open internet...

For example say im in Canada and im pulling a feed from some place like Kuala Lumpor (a lot of Asian Data Centers are built there as its close to the main pacific trunks coming into North America) and for the sake of arguement theres a thousands packets to the stream im watching...

Now without a vpn all those packets will just spew out from the source onto the open net in their numbered order and eventually show up at my end but i have no say or control over making sure i receive them in sequential order or even in a properly timed manner...

Now if i were to use a VPN and ensure its one thats gonna pop me out on one of their servers in Kuola Lumpor what ive actually done other then keeping my privacy is create a encrypted tunnel back to my end that helps direct the streamed packets back to me in a more direct manner... Overall that creates the impression of the VPN is actually adding bandwidth or making me faster... technically tho thats not right because anything like a VPN is a drain on bandwidth as it can't give someone more then what they actually have... but the illusion and peoples misunderstanding of how things work make them think VPN's are a good idea for the wrong reasons...

I don't know about exactly how Real Debrids system works but i suspect that they are making use of some similar ideas by adding your device to sometype of virtual network on their side that feeds the streams to the registered device once you marry it to their system... i could think of a couple of things they may be doing but i never researched them other then actually using the service as it really is worth the few bux they charge...

I hate banging on and on about buffering issues but it just irks me to no end to see people constantly blaming Kodi so im really glad you posted your example... thanx